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Digital Doping - cure is Zwift certified true rider specifications

Digital doping - one can cheat on Zwift by playing with the weight numbers. Zwift should have bike shops certify a riders weight (by weighing them) and register the rider on Zwift. So the rider will have like a special emblem showing they are on using genuine numbers. These certified zwift riders cannot change their specs online. It can only be done by zwift approved bike shops....for a small fee. Bike shop wins......Zwift wins on reliability.....and the zwift community wins also because it's nice to know that rider that went by you at 100km/hr is not doped but for real.

 

34 comments

  • 0
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    Mr. Alpaca The Avatar

    Yes, i agree

  • 3
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    Nigel Doyle

    I can see some merit in this but can't ever see it happening. I've lost weight lately and dropped my weight on Zwift. What I did was take a photo of me standing on digital scales. I then posted the photo on Strava with one of my rides. Obviously easy to cheat on this as well.

    What's more of an issue in my opinion is all the people riding budget smart trainers that can have dodgy power accuracy unless by some miracle they can get it calibrated properly. These people are not deliberately cheating they just assume because their smart trainer says they're doing 350 watts it must be correct. I read about riders who upgrade from a Tacx XYZ to a direct drive trainer and find their FTP has dropped by 50 watts.

    I assume you're aware that Zwifpower.com has implemented new terms and conditions today where they will out anyone caught weight doping.

  • -4
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    Macho Lim

    oh really ? I thought Zwift coudn't give shat as long as pay your monthyly.....cough.....soon to be increased monthly premium.

  • 2
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    Jordan Rapp

    Edward,

    We've discussed this before, but I think the issue is that it solves only part of the process and gives - in my opinion - an unwarranted sense of "certification." If we verify your weight but don't - for example - verify the calibration of your smart trainer or powermeter, that's incomplete.

    There's no logical link between someone having verified weight and properly calibrated equipment. But there's no real difference in the impact of the two on in-game performance.

    Ultimately we will always be reliant on some level of user-provided data. But that's true of racing and training IRL as well.

    //Jordan

    Zwift Game Design

  • 0
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    🚁💨 choppa.slw

    You need both, weight & power; what about the shop having multiple calibrated power sources to ensure highly accurate reading (ie. smart trainer + pedal + crank), the rider does a weigh in, then performs a test to match their power profile (perhaps even does a race on this setup, their performance should match their average curve logged on Zwift Power), this rider then receives some kind of verification if within x% of average curve... it's not verifying the riders setup, it's verifying the rider's known "power fingerprint", certainly something I'd pay for.

  • -2
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    Macho Lim

    I don't think anyone would hack their smart trainer to make them go faster but they can certainly input lighter weights to make them digitally more powerful.

    And yes -i'm never ever gonna cart my 25kg wahoo kickr to the store just to certify it! I'll break my back doing it.

    I wonder how many percentage of riders actually put in a false weight just to dope? It kind of back fire on them anyway as the feedback is not accurate and robs these cheaters of a true results of their form. It's not like this is Forza (xbox) and you can win achievements.

    In fact i aschew the achievements obtained and want to ride as accurate as possible. To me that's the real fun of virtual riding - the accuracy being replicated indoors.

  • 2
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    🚁💨 choppa.slw

    @Edward, it's not the trainer that needs to be verified, it's the rider's power, which should be consistent along calibrated equipment, thus verifying the rider's power ability verifies their setup.

    @Jordan, can you please clarify what you mean by: "But there's no real difference in the impact of the two on in-game performance."  I find that statement concerning; I wouldn't care so much if it was from anyone else on the forums, but you work for Zwift, and proper calibration of weight & power is absolutely critical and I would think that would be a shared value within the Zwift company; hopefully I am just reading it wrong.

  • 0
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    Greg Woitzik

    I agree this is a problem, but to have a shop weigh a rider and calibrate their traner seems ridiculous to me. All trainers and powermeters will not read the same. Zpower is another story altogether.

  • 1
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    Nigel Doyle

    Agreed. Having a shop weigh and check trainer or measure FTP is ludicrous.

    What I want to see is where races are restricted to power meters and approved smart trainers. This would exclude the budget wheel on smart trainers that often have bad calibration.

  • 0
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    Artur Kubinski

    @Nigel Doyle ZHR(F)  You speak well.
    Category A
    Professions without weight. The trainer only with a power meter and approved smart trainers. .

    B category
    Professions without weight. Trainer without power meter. przelicznik mocy.

  • 2
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    Jordan Rapp

    @GET TO THE CHOPPA

    What I mean is that if your weight is accurate but your powermeter is not _OR_ your powermeter is accurate but your weight is not, the impact on the game will be (roughly) the same - you'll be faster than you should be.

    That's why I said only verifying weight would give a false sense of "truth."

    I think you read my comment as implying - when I said they'd be the "same" - as meaning the same as a user who put in accurate information. That's definitely not what i meant. I mean that since we basically operate off of W/kg, whether you add more W or subtract more kg, the net outcome will be higher W/kg than what is accurate. It's just math.

  • 0
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    C Hil

    While this could be aimed at a very specific group of Zwift users, could Zwift leverage devices such as the Garmin Index smart scale or a Withing's scale to link/pair data via ANT+ or BTLE as sort of an addition layer of verification?   

    TBH, I can't see 95% of the Zwift community jumping on to something like this, especially if Zwift doesn't already have metric tracking as means of integration for rider weight.   But for high end races or events that would put A riders into a very real area, investing into a smart scale that could link to their account wouldn't be a significant cost compared to what was already invested into a smart trainer.   

    If Zwift could get on-board with metric tracking, perhaps integration with a Smart Scale could be a welcome addition to the platform.   

     

  • 0
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    Greg Woitzik

    @c hill I have my withings scale already connected to zwift, weight gets updated every morning when i weigh myself.

  • 0
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    Paul Allen

    C Hill,

    You can already sync from Withings. 

  • 0
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    C Hil

    Well that's cool!  Didn't know it could do that!  

    I guess with that level of integration, it shouldn't be too hard to restrict certain events to both a power meter and a scale input.   Again, though - it's not something I can see the bulk of the users actually using, but if there are folks that are this dead set on exactness, it could be an avenue to look at.   

     

     

  • 1
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    Paul Allen

    I thought there was ZADA (Zwift Anti Doping Agency) for this so you could get certified or something like that (I don't race and don't plan to), they compare your IRL rides to Zwift rides to make sure your data is correct.

  • 0
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    Jordan Rapp

    @Paul - yes, ZwiftPower. But they aren't a part of Zwift, so I can see that if a user thinks that we (Zwift) should be policing this, then Zwift Power isn't really that.

  • 1
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    Paul Allen

    @Jordan - I am aware the Zwiftpower in not Zwift, but if this is to be done I think a 3rd party will have to handle it and somehow get Zwift to mark the riders as certified somehow. Zwift should just supply the race course and let the 3rd parties handle the race it’s self.

    Solo riders like myself are being ignored by Zwift already and if they start doing this the solo riders are going to start feeling more left out.

  • 0
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    Jordan Rapp

    @Paul

    Well I hope I made it clear that I don't think we should be doing it. And why.

    And I think we've got a bunch of great stuff coming that is absolutely targeted at solo riders. So I hope that you don't feel left out. I am - and was before I started working here - very much a solo rider.

    //Jordan

  • 0
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    Paul Allen

    I understand Jordan and I really don’t have a dog in this fight since I have never done a race and never plan to do one. In reality there is no way that this could actually could be accomplished with 100% certainty.

    Glad to here there are more things com8ng for the solo riders, hopefully a few more triathlon/TT bikes (Felts would be cool). 

  • 1
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    Steve Copeland

    Erm..... Am I missing something here?  Zwift is a GAME....

    Whilst I am fascinated by stats and I use Garmin connect and Garmin Smart Scales with Garmin HR etc and they all push weights etc into my other apps I see it purely as a bit of fun and keeping myself fit during the winter.  Why on earth would I want someone in a bike shop to certify my weight!!!

    I have noticed that switching from a wheel in trainer to a Tacx Neo that my power readings have dropped but are now very consistent.  However I have no idea what the numbers actually mean and don't really care!!!

    Are we in danger of taking ourselves to seriously?

  • 0
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    Macho Lim

    just wanting to make it as realistic as possible to increase the enjoyment of the 'game'.

  • 1
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    Steve Copeland

    Your enjoyment maybe!  I certainly would not continue to subscribe to the game if I found myself needing to be certified for anything.

    The road is where real races occur if that's your thing.  The game is just a game and a bit of fun and should not be taken too seriously.  Trust me as someone who is on the receiving end as a pilot of controlled simulation all the time the last thing I would one is Zwift turning into an "approved" simulator and I bet a lot of people agree!

    Come on, live a little......  ;)

     

  • 1
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    C hris Strub

    I have to agree with Steve.  I do not race.  I would not stand a chance.  I use a Kickr Snap with elevation simulator set to full.  I am sometimes tempted to lower my weight or turn off simulator, but for what gains, so I leave it true.  Really.  I'd only be cheating myself.  I used to spin like a mofo with my KK dumb trainer.  (Zpower).  It was still accurate to my real life limited power.  :). But it was a spin class.   Now, with the smart trainer, I can really practice real hill climbing.  I still tackle hills with high cadence, but lower gears.  Like real life.  There is no way I could climb box hill using 50/11.  It's just not real.  Chain would snap.  How is using a power meter with a dumb trainer, real?

    That being said.  There are some true tough people out there.  There are some cheaters or people that have no idea they are doing so.

    For me, Zwift is just a thing to get me thru Canada's winter.  I don't use it during the spring, summer, fall.  Although I still pay for it, to support.  Lol.

  • 0
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    Artur Kubinski

    I also run the Direto smart elite on the simulator. overcoming the top is for me 36 / 28-32. gives the feeling of a real mountain 12-17%.

  • 0
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    C hris Strub

    Yes, muscles flexing to pop, that is real cycling.  :)

  • 1
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    David Griscom YCW

    We can't stop cheating in pro cycling, so how are we going to fix this in an online game?  Even with certified weight and trainers, there will still be ways to cheat if people want to.  Accept that fact that Zwift is a fun training tool but not real life. 

  • -3
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    E ddy Slow

    I'll send my 45kg nephew to the bike shop to get weighed and have him say he's me. Poxy idea.

  • -2
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    Linwood Wadsworth

    I have a smart scale so my weight is sent directly to zwift. So there is another method.

  • 0
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    🚁💨 choppa.slw

    Smart scale means nothing. Hold the counter and adjust weight to suit what your ego can take. //And go ahead eddy have a 45kg rider (with falsified ID) set your ftp for 225w. More jokes.

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